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Talk:Self-inflicted immobilisation
Stinger I'm with you on all the other cases you deleted (I'm assuming the new rule is that we don't list immobilizations unless they actually cost the robots its match), but why was Stinger driving into the pit in Series 3 removed? RA2; aka Resetti's Replicas. (My Talk) 23:11, March 31, 2011 (UTC) :My logic was either that the immobilisation had to cost it the match, as you said, OR it had to be clearly self-immobilised. If there is any doubt whether it was a hostile immobilisation, it can't be listed here. I removed Cunning Plan and TRACIE because they immobilised each other, not both self-immobilising. You watch how Stinger falls into the pit after bouncing off a charging Mace 2. By logic, this was a pitting by Mace 2/self inflicted immobilisation. For convinience, it is excluded. :The reason I introduced this rule was because of the nonsense regarding Mute and Firestorm 5. I did not want anyone listing Mute's loss as a self-inflicted immobilisation when it was clearly not, and there was no evidence that Mute flipped itself out, or even it this was possible. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 02:20, April 1, 2011 (UTC) ::I've added significantly to the page. That should explain it, although it might be different to what I said above ^ 'Toon Ganondorf (t ' 04:42, April 1, 2011 (UTC) Chaos 2 vs S.M.I.D.S.Y. Is it REALLY self-immobilisation? Chaos 2 did flip itself over, true, but it should have been able to right itself. However, it couldn't because S.M.I.D.S.Y. had damaged its flipper plate. Surely that would mean, therefore, that the immobilisation was S.M.I.D.S.Y.'s fault and not a self-one. Just saying. CrashBash 05:44, April 2, 2011 (UTC) :Overflip was very difficult to define. Your logic is correct, but remember that Atomic should have been able to self-right also, as should Gemini. The fact that they didn't therefore removes the point, and it still stands that they immobilised themselves. 'Toon Ganondorf (t ' 07:23, April 2, 2011 (UTC) ::Yes, but Gemini and Atomic did themselves in. Chaos 2 did not...as I mentioned, S.M.I.D.S.Y. had damaged its flipper plate. Had it not been damaged, then Chaos 2 would have been able to right itself. Atomic damaged itself in the flip, evidently, so yes I could see that counting, but Chaos 2 did not. ::Let's look at it another way.... *Atomic flipped itself over trying to flip Typhoon 2. Its flipping pistons jammed open. At no point before this had Typhoon 2 actually launched an attack, since it wasn't spinning. Therefore, Typhoon 2 was not responsible and Atomic knocked itself out. Self-immobilisation. *Gemini flipped itself over trying to flip over Napalm 2. However, at no point was it touching Napalm when it flipped itself. Therefore, Napalm was not responsible and Gemini knocked itself out. Self-immobilisation. *Chaos 2 flipped itself over trying to throw S.M.I.D.S.Y. OOTA. HOWEVER, on the initial slam, S.M.I.D.S.Y. had damaged Chaos 2's flipper plate. Normally, Chaos 2 should have been able to right itself, but because of the damaged plate, it couldn't. Yes, it flipped itself over....but since S.M.I.D.S.Y. was directly responsible for its inability to right itself.....do you see where I'm trying to go with this? CrashBash 11:30, April 2, 2011 (UTC) :::I dont understand how the damaged plate stopped it from self righting actually. To me it just looks like its low on CO2? 'Toon Ganondorf (t ' 11:54, April 2, 2011 (UTC) ::::Well, George Francis said himself that that was the reason for it being unable to right itself. Besides, being "low on CO2" after only....what was it....three or four flips is a bit unreasonable. I'm sorry, but in my personal view, if S.M.I.D.S.Y. had something to do with the immobilisation of Chaos 2 (in this case, damaging its flipper plate), then it isn't self-inflicted. CrashBash 13:05, April 2, 2011 (UTC) Deomlisher Clarity? I've been thinking that maybe Demolisher doesn't really belong, seeing as its immobiliation in Stock Car didn't cause it to be eliminated. There's no denying that a spade is a spade, but I see we've deleted several other cases of SII in the gauntlet or trial where a robot still goes through. What's the ruling? 'RA2; aka Resetti's Replicas. (My Talk) 18:06, April 2, 2011 (UTC) :To be honest, I agree with you. If we can't have Plunderbird 2 or G.B.H., who were definate self-immobilisations, why does Demolisher get away with it? CrashBash 19:37, April 2, 2011 (UTC) ::I keep forgetting that rule. Why don't we change it to reinclude Plunderbird 2, GBH, etc, and make the ruling that a self-inflicted immobilisation in Gauntlet/Trial doesn't need to cause a knockout, as it was not immediately decided whether a robot would have been knocked out by the immobilisation or not? In battles a self-inflicted immobilisation instantly equals goodbye, but for all they knew, Demolisher might have been eliminated by that crash. Perhaps we should also include battles where they went to deliberation, like T2, because the judges had to make a ruling. I think it would make the definition more concise. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 22:21, April 2, 2011 (UTC) 2 ideas I had 2 ideas to solve the problem of confusion, which of these do you like better? 1) This page gets renamed "Self inficted eliminaton" a subset of "Self inficted immobilization" where we could put cases like Razer vs Widow's Revenge or Demolisher in the trial 2) Make the rule that in a gauntlet or trial, self inflicted immobilization applies to any robot that by its own means becomes unable to progress further. 'RA2; aka Resetti's Replicas. (My Talk) 00:47, April 3, 2011 (UTC) :I support idea 2. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 00:56, April 3, 2011 (UTC) Panic Attack I found this comment on the 101 vs Panic Attack video: At first i thought it was bad driving but if you look carefully. When PA grabbed 101 and tried to push it forward to the pit, all﻿ that time 101 had one track on groundhold. 2:04-2:05, 101 used it's left track to get some push away from the pit. Then at 2:06, you can see that 101 has the left track on Panic Attack, and the right track on the ground. From then on used the power of both it's tracks to give a push on Panic Attack. Thus ending in the pit and loosing, a terrible shame. Panic attack was pushed down the pit and didn't drive down although it looked like it. Madlooney6 (talk) 13:34, January 19, 2012 (UTC) Staglet Why is Staglet not included on this page? Sam (BAZINGA) 18:44, August 27, 2012 (UTC) :If you feel something is missing, then always feel free to add it in yourself. It is likely that Staglet was just forgotten while this list was compiled. 'Helloher I'm back, and hopefully for good 18:55, August 27, 2012 (UTC) Eric Thinking back, does Eric really count as a self-inflicted immobilisation? Looking back at the battle, King Buxton pushed Eric towards the pit and both robots get stranded with half their wheels over the edge of the pit. Now, its true that Eric falls into the pit via its own drive, but considering that it was two wheel driven, there is realistically no way it could have escaped. On the show, Eric tries reversing, and whilst it does manage to get its stuck wheel touching the edge, it is not able to pull it up and eventually falls in. If it had gone forward, it obviously would have just spun around on its free wheel and have nowhere to go but die. When all is said and done, considering King Buxton was the one who pushed Eric towards the pit, and is the reason why Eric's wheel slipped in, I don't think this can count as a self-inflicted immobilisation, because Eric had no means of escaping, and wouldn't have been put in that unavoidable position if King B hadn't put it there - I.E. it was due to an aggressive attack by another robot, and not Eric's own driving. The only truth I see here is that Eric did try to pit King B afterwards and backed itself in after accidently freeing it, but by then the damage had been done. Thoughts? CrashBash (talk) 07:41, February 23, 2016 (UTC) :That is a excellent point, Eric couldn't have escaped and would've been nudged in by King B or the House Robots if King B still escaped but Eric didn't fall into the pit freeing King B. Sam (BAZINGA) 00:04, July 4, 2016 (UTC) Vector of Armageddon (and falling off platforms) The Vector of Armageddon argument really doesn't work for me. True, it cleared the first ramp. It still got stuck on the second one. The assumption that it could clear both ramps, despite having some merit, was still an incorrect and erroneous assumption. The assumption that Steel Avenger's axe wouldn't get stuck in the floor would seem to me to be equally, if not more, reasonable so I don't see how the former counts as unavoidable and the latter doesn't. I'd suggest replacing this example with T.R.A.C.I.E stranding itself on/being stranded by Cunning Plan. Falling off platforms is another point that I was going to crowbar in but decided not to. Can't edit the topic title now :( MudnuK (talk) 20:51, July 3, 2016 (UTC) :VoA turned whilst going onto the second ramp, leading to its immobilisation. Had it turned when it was completely on the second ramp, it wouldn't had immobilised itself. Sam (BAZINGA) 23:54, July 3, 2016 (UTC) :(Late reply. First time editing a talk page, assumed I'd get a notification with your edit) Right, so they shouldn't have turned. That was a driving error exposing an unforeseen design flaw. Plus, in confirming that they could have traversed the ramp if they hadn't turned so early, you're suggesting it was avoidable.MudnuK (talk) 10:37, July 29, 2016 (UTC) Razer v Kill-E-Crank-E Before this becomes a back and forth in the edit history, we need to settle it here. Personally, I think that we need to take Robin Herrick's statements with a grain of salt because we are only hearing from one side of the matter, and roboteers tend to exaggerate their effectiveness in battle. I'm sure Razer would argue that Kill-E-Crank-E contributed far less to Razer's pitting than Herrick would. As was the case with Stinger v Mace 2, where doubt exists, assume not self-inflicted immobilisation. Therefore I say that Razer v Kill-E-Crank-E should not belong on this page. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 09:30, July 29, 2016 (UTC) :From what I could tell, Razer was the one responsible for getting Kill-E to the pit, but Kill-E was the one responsible for getting Razer to overbalance, so in affect, they pretty much killed each other. I would also argue the same logic as I did for Chaos 2 vs S.M.I.D.S.Y. not being self-inflicted. CrashBash (talk) 10:12, July 29, 2016 (UTC) ::I added Razer and Kill-E to the Hazard Immobilization page for the reason Crash pointed out, Razer had Kill-E in a position where releasing it or driving forwards would pit Kill-E either way, who then turned as to pit Razer. The way I see it, they pitted each other at the same time, a case of simultaneous hazard immobilizations. --Voyanuitoa (talk) 12:08, July 29, 2016 (UTC) :::I don't believe that they are hazard immobilisations either. It was just a combination of both sides driving that both ended up in the pit. It doesn't need to be noted anywhere. 'Toon Ganondorf (t ' 14:58, July 29, 2016 (UTC) ::::Well, they ended up in the pit, it technically is. Either way, it's never as simple as one might think - I mean, look at Wild Willy, we all thought it was a self-inflicted immobilisation, but it was actually a malfunction. As it stands, I think this is safest. CrashBash (talk) 15:37, July 29, 2016 (UTC) Basher-2016 pilot. Should we include Basher from the 2016 pilot where it overbalanced and fell in the pit after pushing Tanto in? Or are we keeping this page just for televised events? Is pitting stranded? There are lots of occurrences of Robots pitting themselves, which gets classed as stranded. There are also a few non-pitting incidents where the robot is still classed as stranded, such as when Chompalot was flipped by the floor flipper in 2016. Dantomkia was tecnically "stranded" by the Angle Grinder in S6, but gets called "Arena Hamper". I also dislike the word "Overflip" used for Atomic in particular. I think we need to rethink the words used here, such as separating a stranding immobilisation into groups that distinguish self-pitting and other instances of self-stranding that don't involve the pit. Jimlaad43(talk) 10:28, October 26, 2016 (UTC) :Open to suggestions. 'Toon Ganondorf (t ' 22:22, October 26, 2016 (UTC) ::I believe Pitted should be its own term. Atomic could potentially be renamed to "recoil", perhaps it should even be joined by robots like PP3D? [[User:ToastUltimatum|'TOAS]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'T']] 23:34, March 14, 2017 (UTC) :::Recoil is a good one. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 00:22, March 15, 2017 (UTC) ::::Somebody want to roll out these changes? More images would help too. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'TOAS]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'T']] 22:49, April 4, 2017 (UTC) :::::I'll cover at least the image side of things tomorrow. Nweston8 (talk) 01:28, April 5, 2017 (UTC) :I agree that 'Pitted' should be considered separate from 'Stranded', but 'Recoil' sounds too spinner-specific to me. Perhaps a term like 'Weapon-based' could be applied as a direct replacement for 'Overflip', so as to cover multiple weapon types (e.g. Atomic, PP3D). Nevertheless, I am happy to roll out the suggested changes on everyone's behalf. [[User:VulcansHowl|'Vulcans']][[User talk:VulcansHowl|'Howl']] 08:40, April 5, 2017 (UTC) :Recoil is better because weapon based is confusing without Weapon immobilisation. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 08:49, April 5, 2017 (UTC) ::In that case, 'Recoil' it is. Will begin rolling out the changes later today. [[User:VulcansHowl|'Vulcans]][[User talk:VulcansHowl|'Howl']] 09:01, April 5, 2017 (UTC) Panic Attack (bump) "I found this comment on the 101 vs Panic Attack video: At first i thought it was bad driving but if you look carefully. When PA grabbed 101 and tried to push it forward to the pit, all﻿ that time 101 had one track on groundhold. 2:04-2:05, 101 used it's left track to get some push away from the pit. Then at 2:06, you can see that 101 has the left track on Panic Attack, and the right track on the ground. From then on used the power of both it's tracks to give a push on Panic Attack. Thus ending in the pit and loosing, a terrible shame. Panic attack was pushed down the pit and didn't drive down although it looked like it. Madlooney6 (talk) 13:34, January 19, 2012 (UTC)" I made that edit 5 years ago and nobody even commented on it despite the fact it reveals that Panic Attack was pushed down the pit instead of driving into it. The comment explains how 101 avoided the pit and how PA ended up in the pit instead. Sam (BAZINGA) 00:18, April 5, 2017 (UTC) :Just do what you think if you don't get an answer. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 09:12, April 5, 2017 (UTC) ::It was all a bit six of one and half a dozen of the other, with both contributing to it - so yeah, it should be removed. EDIT: And I've only just realised it's been removed anyhow. Nweston8 (talk) 15:41, April 5, 2017 (UTC) Rapid Rapid was an overflip right? As I recall? 'Toon Ganondorf (t ' 21:17, April 5, 2017 (UTC) Concussion Shouldn't Concussion's Series 10 heat final loss go here? It drove onto the floor flipper which was the eventual downfall of the robot as it couldn't self-right from there onwards. Jimlaad43(talk) 14:06, November 16, 2017 (UTC) :Not when it was presumably Nuts 2 which busted its wheel again. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'TOAS]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'T']] 14:40, November 16, 2017 (UTC) ::The wheels weren't busted, the Nut Busters were the things that stopped it moving, which we all know were added by Concussion. Jimlaad43(talk) 14:51, November 16, 2017 (UTC) :::Tim Rackley did clarify in a podcast that a blow from Nuts 2 partially disabled one half of their drive. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'T'OAS]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'T']] 17:07, November 16, 2017 (UTC) ::::This can also be seen in the fight where it is pretty clear one wheel stops rotating long before shunt became involved. TeamShakey (talk) 12:03, November 17, 2017 (UTC) :I'd also like to point out that if Nuts was the one responsible for bending the Nut Busters over (and you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong here), then technically this falls into the same category as Chaos 2 vs S.M.I.D.S.Y., which I was adamant was not technically a self-inflicted immobilisation because what caused the immobilisation was the opponent in the first place. Yes, Concussion got itself flipped over in the first place, but it still would have been able to run had Nuts not damaged it. CrashBash (talk) 12:29, November 17, 2017 (UTC)